[VBbuilders] Google Voice discovered allowing pure VoIP calls???

[Michel Bauwens]

hi patrick,

could you publish your section, 'these are not consumer coops' to one of
your pages on the p2p-f wiki, as this is an important aspect that you
explain well here

On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 9:30 PM, Patrick Anderson <agnucius at gmail.com>wrote:

> Michel Bauwens wrote:
> > I remain unconvinced of a consumers-only ownership modality, again, all
> > stakeholders should have a stake, all peers, not just consuming peers
>
> Workers can invest more than they are able to consume, but it won't do
> them any good when the consumers already have sufficient ownership
> needed to protect themselves from workers who try to stop other peers
> from doing that work by blocking access to the Sources of Production.
>
> Workers cannot protect wages through ownership if other consumers
> already have sufficient ownership because propping wages requires
> the worker be able to STOP other potential workers from accessing
> the Sources of Production, and why would a group stop a peer from
> bidding to do a job - in some cases even for free (gratis).
>
> Like I said, I don't care if Workers invest and co-own more of the Apple
> orchard than they are able to consume, but how will that help them
> prop up wages when the other co-owners will always have the option
> to do the work for themselves or to hire the lowest bidder?
>
> When the consumers around those workers have sufficient ownership,
> they will not be buying the product from anyone, but will own it already
> as a side-effect of their owning the Sources of those Objectives.
>
>
>
> > if this type of consumer coop
>
> This is absolutely NOT a Consumer Cooperative.
>
> 1,) Consumer Cooperatives *sell* the product back to the co-owners and
> collect a profit during that transaction that a committee then doles
> out in a Tyranny of the Majority fashion.
>
> 1a.) Imputed Production only sells product to non-owners, and only
> when there is surplus, and treats that profit as an investment from
> that payer - causing ownership and control to be automatically
> distributed at the point of sale back to the actor who was willing to
> pay for it.  This system minimizes and nearly eliminates the trading
> of goods since the owner of Sources does not buy the Objective, but
> owns it already as a result of his owning the Sources.  The trading of
> goods will tend toward zero but does not reach stasis because of
> newcomers into the system (even just babies being born), and because
> people's interests change across time.
>
> 2.) Consumer Cooperatives are "Democratically Controlled" with
> one-member/one-vote.
>
> 2a.) Imputed Production is far more autarchic- where any member can
> 'fork' his portion of the Sources and secede from the union or sell
> those shares if a split is attempted that is finer than reasonable
> divisibility (you can't both feed a single milk-cow grain and NOT feed
> that cow grain, but can divide a herd).
>
> 2b.) Each member has exactly as much vote power as he has ownership.
> If you own 11% of a roto-tiller and your neighbor owns 22%, then you
> have only half as much vote power in decisions such as "how often
> should we change the oil".
>
> 3.) Every Consumer Cooperative I know of is only concerned with buying
> products that were made by Capitalists.
>
> 3a.) Imputed Production is primarily about ownership and control of
> the entire tree of production - recursively, and works toward a
> Vertically Integrated Commons where we, the people, own the farms and
> factories and land and water rights and all the other Sources and
> supporting Sources required to reproduce those things.
>
> There are other differences I don't remember right now, but please do
> not call my proposal a Consumer Cooperative, because the
> organizational forms are vastly different both in structure and in
> results.
>
>
> > turns out to be successfull, more people would
> > choose it (of course, this can only happen in a truly free society, so
> this
> > is quite hypothetical, and political transformations will be needed
> before
> > such type of free experimentation can occur)
>
> We don't need to transform politicians, and do not have enough money
> to buy such changes anyway.
>
> All we need to do is start businesses that are funded and owned by
> Consumers and that treat Profit as payer investment.
>



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