[VBbuilders] [p2p-research] [OK] Re: Why and how work together?

Wed Apr 21 01:35:13 CEST 2010

HI matt,

you say: Map people, groups, goals, strategies, and resource and their
relationships using standard data formats and a distributed database. (a lot
of work has already been done on this across a number of the participants
here)

we're using open source wiki's and blogs essentially, which I think work on
these principles

twitter and facebook are used, for their reach, not for gathering info,
that's a political decision,

that leaves the status of delicious .. because of its overriding ease of use
..

what's missing is an open source collectivising/networking of the people
around the effort ..

On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 8:10 PM, Matt Cooperrider <mattcooperrider at gmail.com
> wrote:

> It's a great question Andrius, and one worth answering.
>
> But it's way too big a question for one person to answer. Would folks on
> this list first try to answer this question instead?:
>
> *** What do we need to do in order to be able to answer the question "why
> and how work together?" ***
>
> Here's mine:
>
> Map people, groups, goals, strategies, and resource and their relationships
> using standard data formats and a distributed database. (a lot of work has
> already been done on this across a number of the participants here)
>
> - Matt
>
>   On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 9:38 PM, Michel Bauwens <michelsub2004 at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>>   I'm equally unsure that attacking people in person who have put much
>> effort in building a broader global movement (franz, sam, alex) is really
>> helpful, and also, I think human ego precludes everybody following the same
>> movement, whether it is andrius' or p2p-f or whatever,
>>
>> so it is looking for commonalities in our approaches, looking for common
>> needs, and technology proceeds from that, not the other way around,
>>
>> each of our approaches appeals to different personalities and segments of
>> people, though of course, historical events and sudden scale-explosion of a
>> particular initiative, will eventually coalesce forces into particular
>> social organisations, but p2p, broadly considered, is still too emergent and
>> ahead of its time to achieve such scale.
>>
>> So where we are is with this flourishing of myriad initiatives, each
>> trying to re-invent the wheel and duplicating efforts,
>>
>> BUT, we can use each other's differential strengths to rally around
>> certain initiatives for certain goals, and around others for other goals,
>>
>> people who are spiritually inclined would join andrius, those interested
>> in building a knowledge commons would rally around the p2p-foundation (if I
>> had my wish <g>), and those with tech-platform ideas around sam's forward
>> foundation,
>>
>> at this stage, this is unavoidable,
>>
>> Michel
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Mark Petz <ravenwyn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I see here Andrius exposing his thoughts openly. BUT I see that can be
>>> seen as divisive and argumentative by some. I think that this call for
>>> communities working together is actually a reflection of what we want in
>>> real life.
>>>
>>> Luckily I have a community where at times I can play a leadership rôle
>>> and at others a supporting rôle. Pispala is good that way with solidarity a
>>> part of how we are. I urge any of you to come and spend some time here with
>>> projects I can help you find and you can see how that culture works.
>>>
>>> Annette is doing this right now.
>>>
>>> Markus
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 10:33 PM, <ms at ms.lt> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm glad for Franz Nahrada's and other letters at Global Villages
>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/globalvillages/ in response to the
>>>> closing
>>>> down of the free-of-charge Ning services and what we might do next.
>>>>
>>>> I wish that:
>>>> * We organize around people who have demonstrated successful leadership
>>>> as
>>>> networkers working openly, whether its Suresh Fernando (Open Kollab),
>>>> Tiffany Von Emmel (Dreamfish), myself (Minciu Sodas), Michel Bauwens
>>>> (P2P
>>>> Foundation), etc.   And actually double check what has been successful.
>>>> So, for example, our Pyramid of Peace http://www.pyramidofpeace.net was
>>>> undeniably successful.  Franz Nahrada is a key person at Minciu Sodas,
>>>> but
>>>> not a "hub" for "working openly", rather a person who destructively
>>>> "compartmentalizes" activity, which is to say, works in a closed,
>>>> untransparent manner.  Sam Rose is less of a "hub" and Alex Rollins even
>>>> less so.  How can we make progress if we don't acknowledge merit?
>>>> * We organize around social goals - for example, I'm interested in an
>>>> "economy of dreams".  Suresh (and Janet Feldman!) is interested in how
>>>> to
>>>> organize millions of people to tackle big problems like world poverty.
>>>> Tiffany Von Emmel is interested in a new kind of work cooperative.
>>>> Whereas Franz was interested in Ning and Sam is interested in Elgg and
>>>> Alex in Drupal.  I think that's backwards and unhelpful.
>>>> * Let's organize around existing groups.  Tiffany already has an Elgg
>>>> site
>>>> running at http://dreamfish.com  Why do we need more Elgg sites?  Or
>>>> why
>>>> can't we build around existing ones in a more general way?  Why can't we
>>>> build on existing software teams like Dreamfish's?  Why couldn't we
>>>> build
>>>> a team for Minciu Sodas, there was such need? I was very disturbed when
>>>> Franz walked away from years of free service I provided - without any
>>>> consultation - just set up a new server with Ralf - and what has he
>>>> gained?  Or pays 3,000 EUR per year to closed version of ProWiki, why?
>>>> Why aren't we trying to share resources? (And thank you to Franz for
>>>> sharing in many other ways, I recently stayed 6 weeks with him in
>>>> Vienna.)
>>>> * Let's look at technologies and see if there's any examples that
>>>> actually
>>>> encourage us.  I can't think of a single Drupal website that impresses
>>>> me
>>>> as a community.  Nor a Ning or Elgg site for that matter.  Certainly
>>>> none
>>>> as strong as the Minciu Sodas community, which isn't all that strong.
>>>> * What are our personal goals, values, questions, concerns,
>>>> accountability, etc.?  Why are we wasting time with people who offer
>>>> "help" when we have no idea of their own dreams, values, endeavors,
>>>> quests
>>>> nor they of ours?  That's why I believe it's important to start with a
>>>> cultural commitment as I'm trying to with "12 Questions"
>>>> http://www.12questions.org
>>>> * Let's make a technology strategy that can support a culture.  In a
>>>> Facebook/Twitter world it's no longer possible to develop a culture
>>>> through venues, there's no reason for people to be loyal to an online
>>>> space.  So the cultural commitment has to be I imagine a cultural code
>>>> but
>>>> not a set of venues.
>>>>
>>>> I'm very troubled that leadership is offered without credibility, and
>>>> that
>>>> people like myself who have demonstrated credibility are not supported.
>>>> How can we have a meaningful network then?
>>>>
>>>> Andrius
>>>>
>>>> Andrius Kulikauskas
>>>> Minciu Sodas
>>>> http://www.ms.lt
>>>> ms at ms.lt
>>>> +370 699 30003
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > I agree with Michel and Alex on what Michel talks about below. We can
>>>> > discuss and plan first, then choose tools and build together. Makes
>>>> > sense to me.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Michel Bauwens
>>>> > <michelsub2004 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> I'm personally a least effort guy, but that mostly because I'm
>>>> >> overextended
>>>> >> myself,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> the first thing is asking ourselves, but what it is for?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> as i said, the social features and threading were the added value,
>>>> but
>>>> >> otherwise, the Ning site underperformed, and I was the only one
>>>> taking
>>>> >> care
>>>> >> of admin tasks (but thanks to sepp especially for his forum articles
>>>> >> which
>>>> >> attracteda lot of discussion)
>>>> >>
>>>> >> personally, I won't necessarily miss Ning that much, but of course,
>>>> >> would be
>>>> >> happy for others to really build the p2p foundation as a movement,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> this is what is appealing in alex' proposals, to devise a 3-year
>>>> >> strategy
>>>> >> for movement building and funding,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I'm of course really for it, but it is beyond my individual effort,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> what I'm doing with Sam, through civicCRM is devising a mailing list
>>>> of
>>>> >> our
>>>> >> sympathizers, for some more specialized outreach purposes
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Michel
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 7:35 PM, Samuel Rose <samuel.rose at gmail.com>
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Michel Bauwens
>>>> >>> <michelsub2004 at gmail.com>
>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>> >>> > Hi Franz,
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > if you want to know what the p2p network is trying to find as
>>>> >>> solutions,
>>>> >>> > you
>>>> >>> > can talk to Sam, who had some proposals for us, and we're working
>>>> on
>>>> >>> > them,
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> > Michel
>>>> >>> >
>>>> >>> My suggestion was that we can use ELGG http://elgg.org/ as a
>>>> >>> replacement for Ning
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> There's currently lots of discussion, offers and ideas at
>>>> >>> p2presearch at listcultures.org as well, mostly centered around
>>>> Drupal.
>>>> >>> Drupal's great, but I still stick by my suggestion and offer of ELGG
>>>> >>> as the best 1 to 1 replacement for Ning, requiring the least amount
>>>> of
>>>> >>> effort.
>>>> >>> --
>>>> >>> --
>>>> >>> Sam Rose
>>>> >>> Forward Foundation
>>>> >>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>> >>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>> >>> skype: samuelrose
>>>> >>> email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>> >>> http://forwardfound.org
>>>> >>> http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>>>> >>> http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>>>> >>> http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>>> >>> http://localfoodsystems.org
>>>> >>> http://notanemployee.net
>>>> >>> http://communitywiki.org
>>>> >>> http://p2pfoundation.net
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>>> >>> ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --
>>>> >> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University -
>>>> Think
>>>> >> thank:
>>>> >> http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>>> >>
>>>> >> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  -
>>>> >> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>>>> >>
>>>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens
>>>> ;
>>>> >> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > --
>>>> > Sam Rose
>>>> > Forward Foundation
>>>> > Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
>>>> > Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
>>>> > skype: samuelrose
>>>> > email: samuel.rose at gmail.com
>>>> > http://forwardfound.org
>>>> > http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing
>>>> > http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/
>>>> > http://socialmediaclassroom.com
>>>> > http://localfoodsystems.org
>>>> > http://notanemployee.net
>>>> > http://communitywiki.org
>>>> > http://p2pfoundation.net
>>>> >
>>>> > "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
>>>> > ambition." - Carl Sagan
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > Videobridgebuilders mailing list
>>>> > Videobridgebuilders at globalvillages.org
>>>> > http://globalvillages.org/mailman/listinfo/videobridgebuilders
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Videobridgebuilders mailing list
>>>> Videobridgebuilders at globalvillages.org
>>>> http://globalvillages.org/mailman/listinfo/videobridgebuilders
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think
>> thank: http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI
>>
>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net
>>
>> Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
>> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>>
>> Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>   This is a message from the OpenKollab Google Group located at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/openkollab?hl=en
>> To post to this group, send email to openkollab at googlegroups.com
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Matt Cooperrider
> Strategic Account Manager, Collabforge pty ltd
> collaboration ~ mass collaboration ~ social software
> + 61 (0) 468 954 779 ~ 239 Rathdowne St, Carlton, Melbourne 3053
> collabforge.com ~ twitter.com/mattcoop
>
> _______________________________________________
> p2presearch mailing list
> p2presearch at listcultures.org
> http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org
>
>

-- 
Work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University - Think thank:
http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI

P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net  - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net

Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss:
http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org

Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens;
http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
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