<div>I'm equally unsure that attacking people in person who have put much effort in building a broader global movement (franz, sam, alex) is really helpful, and also, I think human ego precludes everybody following the same movement, whether it is andrius' or p2p-f or whatever,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>so it is looking for commonalities in our approaches, looking for common needs, and technology proceeds from that, not the other way around,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>each of our approaches appeals to different personalities and segments of people, though of course, historical events and sudden scale-explosion of a particular initiative, will eventually coalesce forces into particular social organisations, but p2p, broadly considered, is still too emergent and ahead of its time to achieve such scale.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>So where we are is with this flourishing of myriad initiatives, each trying to re-invent the wheel and duplicating efforts,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>BUT, we can use each other's differential strengths to rally around certain initiatives for certain goals, and around others for other goals,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>people who are spiritually inclined would join andrius, those interested in building a knowledge commons would rally around the p2p-foundation (if I had my wish <g>), and those with tech-platform ideas around sam's forward foundation,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>at this stage, this is unavoidable,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Michel</div>
<div> </div>
<div><br><br> </div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 2:43 AM, Mark Petz <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ravenwyn@gmail.com">ravenwyn@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">I see here Andrius exposing his thoughts openly. BUT I see that can be seen as divisive and argumentative by some. I think that this call for communities working together is actually a reflection of what we want in real life.<br>
<br>Luckily I have a community where at times I can play a leadership rôle and at others a supporting rôle. Pispala is good that way with solidarity a part of how we are. I urge any of you to come and spend some time here with projects I can help you find and you can see how that culture works.<br>
<br>Annette is doing this right now. <br><br>Markus
<div>
<div></div>
<div class="h5"><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 10:33 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ms@ms.lt" target="_blank">ms@ms.lt</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">I'm glad for Franz Nahrada's and other letters at Global Villages<br><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/globalvillages/" target="_blank">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/globalvillages/</a> in response to the closing<br>
down of the free-of-charge Ning services and what we might do next.<br><br>I wish that:<br>* We organize around people who have demonstrated successful leadership as<br>networkers working openly, whether its Suresh Fernando (Open Kollab),<br>
Tiffany Von Emmel (Dreamfish), myself (Minciu Sodas), Michel Bauwens (P2P<br>Foundation), etc. And actually double check what has been successful.<br>So, for example, our Pyramid of Peace <a href="http://www.pyramidofpeace.net/" target="_blank">http://www.pyramidofpeace.net</a> was<br>
undeniably successful. Franz Nahrada is a key person at Minciu Sodas, but<br>not a "hub" for "working openly", rather a person who destructively<br>"compartmentalizes" activity, which is to say, works in a closed,<br>
untransparent manner. Sam Rose is less of a "hub" and Alex Rollins even<br>less so. How can we make progress if we don't acknowledge merit?<br>* We organize around social goals - for example, I'm interested in an<br>
"economy of dreams". Suresh (and Janet Feldman!) is interested in how to<br>organize millions of people to tackle big problems like world poverty.<br>Tiffany Von Emmel is interested in a new kind of work cooperative.<br>
Whereas Franz was interested in Ning and Sam is interested in Elgg and<br>Alex in Drupal. I think that's backwards and unhelpful.<br>* Let's organize around existing groups. Tiffany already has an Elgg site<br>running at <a href="http://dreamfish.com/" target="_blank">http://dreamfish.com</a> Why do we need more Elgg sites? Or why<br>
can't we build around existing ones in a more general way? Why can't we<br>build on existing software teams like Dreamfish's? Why couldn't we build<br>a team for Minciu Sodas, there was such need? I was very disturbed when<br>
Franz walked away from years of free service I provided - without any<br>consultation - just set up a new server with Ralf - and what has he<br>gained? Or pays 3,000 EUR per year to closed version of ProWiki, why?<br>Why aren't we trying to share resources? (And thank you to Franz for<br>
sharing in many other ways, I recently stayed 6 weeks with him in Vienna.)<br>* Let's look at technologies and see if there's any examples that actually<br>encourage us. I can't think of a single Drupal website that impresses me<br>
as a community. Nor a Ning or Elgg site for that matter. Certainly none<br>as strong as the Minciu Sodas community, which isn't all that strong.<br>* What are our personal goals, values, questions, concerns,<br>accountability, etc.? Why are we wasting time with people who offer<br>
"help" when we have no idea of their own dreams, values, endeavors, quests<br>nor they of ours? That's why I believe it's important to start with a<br>cultural commitment as I'm trying to with "12 Questions"<br>
<a href="http://www.12questions.org/" target="_blank">http://www.12questions.org</a><br>* Let's make a technology strategy that can support a culture. In a<br>Facebook/Twitter world it's no longer possible to develop a culture<br>
through venues, there's no reason for people to be loyal to an online<br>space. So the cultural commitment has to be I imagine a cultural code but<br>not a set of venues.<br><br>I'm very troubled that leadership is offered without credibility, and that<br>
people like myself who have demonstrated credibility are not supported.<br>How can we have a meaningful network then?<br><br>Andrius<br><br>Andrius Kulikauskas<br>Minciu Sodas<br><a href="http://www.ms.lt/" target="_blank">http://www.ms.lt</a><br>
<a href="mailto:ms@ms.lt" target="_blank">ms@ms.lt</a><br>+370 699 30003<br><br><br>> I agree with Michel and Alex on what Michel talks about below. We can<br>> discuss and plan first, then choose tools and build together. Makes<br>
> sense to me.<br>><br>><br>><br>> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Michel Bauwens<br>> <<a href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com" target="_blank">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>>> I'm personally a least effort guy, but that mostly because I'm<br>
>> overextended<br>>> myself,<br>>><br>>> the first thing is asking ourselves, but what it is for?<br>>><br>>> as i said, the social features and threading were the added value, but<br>
>> otherwise, the Ning site underperformed, and I was the only one taking<br>>> care<br>>> of admin tasks (but thanks to sepp especially for his forum articles<br>>> which<br>>> attracteda lot of discussion)<br>
>><br>>> personally, I won't necessarily miss Ning that much, but of course,<br>>> would be<br>>> happy for others to really build the p2p foundation as a movement,<br>>><br>>> this is what is appealing in alex' proposals, to devise a 3-year<br>
>> strategy<br>>> for movement building and funding,<br>>><br>>> I'm of course really for it, but it is beyond my individual effort,<br>>><br>>> what I'm doing with Sam, through civicCRM is devising a mailing list of<br>
>> our<br>>> sympathizers, for some more specialized outreach purposes<br>>><br>>> Michel<br>>><br>>> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 7:35 PM, Samuel Rose <<a href="mailto:samuel.rose@gmail.com" target="_blank">samuel.rose@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>>>><br>>>> On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 2:17 AM, Michel Bauwens<br>>>> <<a href="mailto:michelsub2004@gmail.com" target="_blank">michelsub2004@gmail.com</a>><br>>>> wrote:<br>
>>> > Hi Franz,<br>>>> ><br>>>> > if you want to know what the p2p network is trying to find as<br>>>> solutions,<br>>>> > you<br>>>> > can talk to Sam, who had some proposals for us, and we're working on<br>
>>> > them,<br>>>> ><br>>>> > Michel<br>>>> ><br>>>> My suggestion was that we can use ELGG <a href="http://elgg.org/" target="_blank">http://elgg.org/</a> as a<br>
>>> replacement for Ning<br>>>><br>>>> There's currently lots of discussion, offers and ideas at<br>>>> <a href="mailto:p2presearch@listcultures.org" target="_blank">p2presearch@listcultures.org</a> as well, mostly centered around Drupal.<br>
>>> Drupal's great, but I still stick by my suggestion and offer of ELGG<br>>>> as the best 1 to 1 replacement for Ning, requiring the least amount of<br>>>> effort.<br>>>> --<br>>>> --<br>
>>> Sam Rose<br>>>> Forward Foundation<br>>>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552<br>>>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451<br>>>> skype: samuelrose<br>>>> email: <a href="mailto:samuel.rose@gmail.com" target="_blank">samuel.rose@gmail.com</a><br>
>>> <a href="http://forwardfound.org/" target="_blank">http://forwardfound.org</a><br>>>> <a href="http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing" target="_blank">http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing</a><br>>>> <a href="http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/" target="_blank">http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/</a><br>
>>> <a href="http://socialmediaclassroom.com/" target="_blank">http://socialmediaclassroom.com</a><br>>>> <a href="http://localfoodsystems.org/" target="_blank">http://localfoodsystems.org</a><br>>>> <a href="http://notanemployee.net/" target="_blank">http://notanemployee.net</a><br>
>>> <a href="http://communitywiki.org/" target="_blank">http://communitywiki.org</a><br>>>> <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net/" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a><br>>>><br>>>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human<br>
>>> ambition." - Carl Sagan<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>> --<br>>> Work: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University</a> - Think<br>
>> thank:<br>>> <a href="http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI" target="_blank">http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI</a><br>>><br>>> P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net/" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a> -<br>
>> <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/" target="_blank">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a><br>>><br>>> Connect: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</a>; Discuss:<br>
>> <a href="http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org" target="_blank">http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org</a><br>>><br>>> Updates: <a href="http://del.icio.us/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://del.icio.us/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens</a>;<br>
>> <a href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://twitter.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens" target="_blank">http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</a><br>>><br>>><br>>><br>
>><br>>><br>><br>><br>><br>> --<br>> --<br>> Sam Rose<br>> Forward Foundation<br>> Tel:+1(517) 639-1552<br>> Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451<br>> skype: samuelrose<br>> email: <a href="mailto:samuel.rose@gmail.com" target="_blank">samuel.rose@gmail.com</a><br>
> <a href="http://forwardfound.org/" target="_blank">http://forwardfound.org</a><br>> <a href="http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing" target="_blank">http://socialsynergyweb.org/culturing</a><br>> <a href="http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/" target="_blank">http://flowsbook.panarchy.com/</a><br>
> <a href="http://socialmediaclassroom.com/" target="_blank">http://socialmediaclassroom.com</a><br>> <a href="http://localfoodsystems.org/" target="_blank">http://localfoodsystems.org</a><br>> <a href="http://notanemployee.net/" target="_blank">http://notanemployee.net</a><br>
> <a href="http://communitywiki.org/" target="_blank">http://communitywiki.org</a><br>> <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net/" target="_blank">http://p2pfoundation.net</a><br>><br>> "The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human<br>
> ambition." - Carl Sagan<br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Videobridgebuilders mailing list<br>> <a href="mailto:Videobridgebuilders@globalvillages.org" target="_blank">Videobridgebuilders@globalvillages.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://globalvillages.org/mailman/listinfo/videobridgebuilders" target="_blank">http://globalvillages.org/mailman/listinfo/videobridgebuilders</a><br>><br><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Videobridgebuilders mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Videobridgebuilders@globalvillages.org" target="_blank">Videobridgebuilders@globalvillages.org</a><br><a href="http://globalvillages.org/mailman/listinfo/videobridgebuilders" target="_blank">http://globalvillages.org/mailman/listinfo/videobridgebuilders</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Work: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhurakij_Pundit_University</a> - Think thank: <a href="http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI">http://www.asianforesightinstitute.org/index.php/eng/The-AFI</a><br>
<br>P2P Foundation: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.net">http://p2pfoundation.net</a> - <a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net">http://blog.p2pfoundation.net</a> <br><br>Connect: <a href="http://p2pfoundation.ning.com">http://p2pfoundation.ning.com</a>; Discuss: <a href="http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org">http://listcultures.org/mailman/listinfo/p2presearch_listcultures.org</a><br>
<br>Updates: <a href="http://del.icio.us/mbauwens">http://del.icio.us/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens">http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://twitter.com/mbauwens">http://twitter.com/mbauwens</a>; <a href="http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens">http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens</a><br>
<br><br><br><br>